Healing Histories – spaces and places

There are few stones left unturned in this episode. The Revd Dr Dan Inman, Precentor of Chichester cathedral, leads us on a pilgrimage through liturgy, buildings, arts and pilgrimage. TW: Gillian and Dan also get into a delicate conversation about the handling of a specific historic abuse case regarding Bishop George Bell.       

The episode explores the following and more:

• Dan shares what a Precentor does. 
• Cathedrals as more than a quirky english moving museum. 
• How cathedrals and the liturgy provide a healing space for many.
• How the George Bell abuse case was handled impacted the naming of places and spaces.
• The possibility of liturgy helping to heal the wounds of historic abuse.
• Pilgrimage, the why, what and where of pilgrimage for Dan.
• Where Dan finds hope for human flourishing, as a Precentor.

Links:
Chichester Cathedral

Bishop George Bell’s name restored to Chichester Cathedral building – BBC News
British Pilgrimage Trust
Scottish Pilgrimage Routes Forum
Alastair Mcintosh Poacher’s Pilgrimage
The GoHealth Everyday Healing Course
Get your GoHealth journal here.
Visit our website to get connected with the GoHealth Community.
Find us on our socials @GuildofHealth

Gillian Straine: Welcome to the Go Health podcast. I’m Gillian Straine, chief exec of GoHealth, an organisation with a mission to enable churches and individual Christians to be a healing presence in the world. And right now, we are in the Healing History series, where we’re exploring the impact of our past on our present with a range of expert voices so that we can go on a journey through our individual and collective lives to find healing and flourishing.

And our expert voice today is the Reverend Doctor Dan Inman, who is presenter of Chichester Cathedral. Dan, welcome. It’s lovely that you’re joining us. How are you today? 

Rev. Dr. Dan Inman: I’m grand, Gillian, it’s great to be with you on this podcast. 

Gillian: Yeah. No, it’s nice to connect again. Cause we studied together, didn’t we? That’s how we met. 

Dan: Yes we did. At theological college.

Gillian: In Oxford. 

Dan: Yeah. Some some, striking memories from some interesting lectures I remember we’re on together. 

Gillian: Yeah, quite a few years ago. So many years. I can’t quite remember. And I can’t do the maths quickly. So we’re meeting here today and you are precentor of Chichester Cathedral. What is a precentor? What’s your day to day look like these days Dan.

Dan: Well yes a presenter is the Primus Cantor, in medieval terms. So I’m the first singer, in the Cathedral’s establishment. So I take a particular responsibility for liturgy and, music, in the, in the Cathedral’s life. And so, day to day existence is shaped by the offices and in particular I suppose the Precentor leading evensong.

And anything can range from pastoral care for the, for the choir itself and its families. And I take my share in the pastoral care in the life of the Cathedral. But I also have responsibility for thinking about arts and exhibitions and I also take care of adult education in the Cathedral. So it’s a varied job.

Gillian: Really varied, and you’re part of a team, doing education and the singing bit first Cantor, that’s not, you know, job description in the jobs listing. Is that right, top of the list, the singing is the main thing? So you have to have a good voice to do your job, is that right? 

Dan: There are Cantors who don’t sing, they’re usually accompanied by other people who can. But no, music’s always been a part of who I am. In fact, it’s not a job I would have applied for, but I’ve sort of ended up doing because no one else could do it. But it’s really sort of played to, my vocation, actually, in a way, which has been really delightful. 

Gillian: Yeah. Oh, that’s so interesting. You didn’t train in music, but this is. 

Dan: No, no. Yeah, I think I always the academic you see. So I sort of pursued that line of things and, and actually since being at Chichester, which has this USP relation to modern arts, that, that’s sort of become a focus for my work. So art and music, and actually you kind of realised that perhaps if I had, chosen to do art rather than Latin as a, as a 11 year old, things might be quite different. But, so, yeah, it’s been a gift really being here in that sense, I’ve, discovered part of myself. I think I’ve forgotten. 

Gillian: Waow. Which bits? 

Dan: I think the creative side. And then actually, rather than being obsessed with historical analysis and writing books and, and endless articles, I get much more joy from singing and being creative and shaping the artistic life of a community, which has been really wonderful. 

Gillian: That’s really powerful because at college, you know, you were you were already Doctor Dan, I think, right? Or you’d finished your PhD?

Dan:  Yeah. Yeah. 

Gillian: So, you know, you know, we all labeled each other very. You were academic. But this sounds like being a place of real flourishing, that you’ve discovered other things about yourself. 

Dan: I think, yeah, just setting down certain things. I think certain ideas I had about myself certain narratives which I felt I had to pursue. And for those reasons I just discovered real delight and freedom, in discovering that these are the things which animate me. But also, I think when I’ve been teaching in relation to art or liturgy that’s where I’ve seen other people come alive. I think people responding to me finding my vocation afresh and, yeah, yeah, it’s been a real, real gift.

Gillian: Wow. It sounds like a real intertwining. Sorry we’re just going completely off piste But this is a real intertwining of some kind of, healing and vocation for yourself. This is our big thing in the Guild, you know, we teach about the healing ministry, but actually, we’ve all got a vocation to, to offer the healing love of Jesus, but find out who we are.

Dan: Definitely. And I had, I had a sort of a bit of a disaster, I suppose, a couple of years ago, various reasons which, don’t need to go into in the podcast, but it, that turned everything upside down and I think and felt immensely desolate at the time, but, a bit, a bit like a landscape after a volcanic eruption, perhaps. It’s amazing to see the kind of things which have grown up in the aftermath of it all. And, and part of that has been discovering, listening for God afresh and I think, hopefully find a feeling a great deal sense of a great, great sense of healing. 

Gillian: Yeah. That’s a really powerful image of flourishing after, the destruction of an event and, and, you know, and, and actually what a story as well, that of, resurrection and, and things changing even though when things go wrong in the past.

Dan: Liturgy is core to that, I think, because it’s the way in which, you know, all the time in all our lives, we’re trying to make sense of loss and grief and desolation in relation to to the Eucharist, you know, and that’s, and that’s week by week, but it’s also the liturgical year and the importance of Holy Week and the Triduum and in making sense of who we are and the mystery of the cross and resurrection and, and that’s been a great privilege in a Cathedral to be part of that in a very particular way. And that’s been part of the healing for me. But like, you know, hopefully, you know, you can see that healing happening in people’s lives as a Precentor in the liturgy. And it’s an enormous privilege. 

Gillian: Yeah. Okay. Well, let’s get into that. You’re in Chichester Cathedral, an ancient place, a historic place. When people think of cathedrals, sometimes they often think of, you know, beautiful buildings that took hundreds of years to make. You’ve got the choral tradition as well, very traditional. Also, cathedrals are places of civic moments and  national moments. Why is a cathedral not just, I don’t know, like a moving museum? Because it’s got all the history stuff is there as you know, with it. What makes it different? 

Dan: Yeah, I mean, I think that’s the first part of what you said about the civic role of a cathedral you know, it’s, they stand as enormous monuments. I mean, across this part of West Sussex, the Cathedral towers above the landscape. And it’s a place in which people do come to, to offer, and offload a huge amount of whatever they’re carrying just because it’s, it’s got that presence in the heart of the city. And, and, you know, when the Queen died would be a good example of that, the way in which, you know, hundreds of people just felt drawn to this place, even though they would never come here to worship. But it was the place which kind of held the memory of a life, which was the life of the nation, I suppose.

And you could extend that out I, I think in relation to the Cathedral, because it you know, I’m giving a guided tour of the place, it’s it’s amazing how you realise it it is a place defined by trauma as well, as much as its beauty and its modern art and so on. But, you know that whether it’s the multiple fires in the 12th century, you can still see the scorch marks, in the stone, or, or the, or the Reformation and, and the Civil War in particular, which was devastating for the cathedral as so many of our cathedrals, the brass ripped up, but for one piece, which kind of tells the story of a single family in Chichester, it’s always very striking and moving and counter. Or the spire collapsing in 1861 and you can see the damage to that stone by Gilbert Scott has replaced the spire in the early 1860s. So it’s a place which is, whose story is kind of, is part of the whole nation’s story and its own story of trauma and crisis, but also in relation to the building itself. So I think it’s it’s a place in which people can locate their own challenges and struggles.

Gillian: Because this sort of it’s had its own history of trauma and maybe subconsciously. And of course, it’s historic, but also contemporary, I mean, we’re recording today on the anniversary of the terrible bombing attack in Manchester. And I know that Manchester Cathedral is, is hosting something today – it’s natural. I mean, you said there that people were just drawn for some reason, the Queen’s death. What do you think that, it’s not just that they’ve read a history of Chichester Cathedral and gone, oh, hang on a second. It’s deeper than that. What do you think that’s about?

Dan: I think, you know, even in our supposedly post-Christian age, I think at a very deep level, we will reach out in those moments because we have to, for bigger stories about who we are. And somehow I suppose the old building, which kind of contains the traces of those memories and those stories which are probably deeper within us than we often care to admit. It has a kind of magnetic quality. People are, are just drawn to it, and, and, and find a place to try and make sense of who they are. I, I, we often think about, I remember Neil MacGregor talking about museums as places where we discover who we are and I think cathedrals do that in a different way, because there is that sense of the transcendent deep within all of us. And that longing for it, even if we’ve stopped believing in God. I think, people still need a different kind of space from museum when these things happen. And, and cathedrals and churches do that in a different way don’t they? 

Gillian: Yeah. And of course, one of the big differences between museums and churches or cathedrals is that in churches or cathedrals we, we gather together in big groups called congregations at certain times and do stuff together. 

Dan: Together. Yeah. Exactly.

Gillian:  Yeah. 

Dan: And the expression of shared grief, which which it, you know, it’s one thing watching it on the television, but actually people do need to be present together, even if they’re in silence. And the power of that silence is extraordinary, isn’t it? 

Gillian: Yeah. And of course, our churches and cathedrals were very recently shut, the doors shut during the pandemic. I mean, historically, you know, I’m not a historian, but I understand that only has only happened once. One other time during one of the plagues, St. Peter’s in Rome was shut and we shut our doors.

What did you notice when, you were at your Chichester then, weren’t you? 

Dan: I was and it was, well, it’s traumatic for everybody, but I do, I do have a particular memory of going back into the Cathedral for the first time when we were allowed to, and just clergy at that point, and the nave had been entirely cleared, because if you remember, we, we felt that, surfaces were problematic. So we just kind of everything was kind of taken away and you kind of saw this raw cathedral laid out before you in the summer light. And it was, it was very beautiful. But there was this strange, very powerful feeling of anger I felt, or it was me just projecting anger onto the space. But I felt that the, the space itself was crying out, saying, I was here, you know, why weren’t, why weren’t you? You know, why weren’t these doors open. Why did you shut the place? Just at the time where, when, when the building needed to do its work for people. And I, you know, I don’t go into those those that are political and, pained arguments around all of that. I think we recognise we we we could have done different things differently there.

But, I think it goes back to that point about a building holding memory and its connection in time and space to, to the people around it, in ways which we don’t fully understand. And I think that, that, that was, that was traumatic for the building. If that makes sense. Sounds a bit kooky.

Gillian: No, I don’t think it sounds kooky. There’s a lovely, is R.S. Thomas poem about the sort of it’s, it’s an image of a building, a church settling after everyone goes home after worship. 

Dan: Right. 

Gillian: Do you know? And they sort of they said that that it makes a difference in human beings or in space. Something does change, something is left behind. And just picking up, before we look at sort of current areas of hurt and healing around the church, but looking at the role of, of when people come together in our cathedrals, not museums, and worship together. And the role of liturgy in this, I mean, liturgy within the Anglican tradition is the tradition of the church where we understand there’s some good stuff about God and our relationship with God in the liturgy.

In your experience, have you seen times that the, the received liturgies of the church, when done, performed by people who have have helped people in times of need, when they need healing, or in answering some of the bigger questions around what we’re going through as a country. 

Dan: Yeah, I think probably to take it down to a personal level. I was thinking about someone I spoke to last week who described coming into the cathedral and for an Ash Wednesday Eucharist, who had just lost, some, some close friends, and a close relative and sort of came with an immense amount of pain and crying out for something, you know, and wanting to encounter God’s faithfulness, or just to hear something, as, as they came to the Eucharist and they, they described how as they, as the chalice and the bread were brought to them, this extraordinary moment where their bracelet, which one of their loved ones had given them, who’d had just died, snapped in two places. And, the various beads fell off it and that they, you can you can talk about the coincidences there, but, I mean, it was a way in which the liturgy interacted with the personal pain, in, in it, and the bracelet expressed that somehow, but that the power of the Eucharist to bring healing in that context in, in the context of Ash Wednesday too, I suppose, and a particular reflection upon mortality and where we come from, where we go. And that was, that was clearly a moments of, which helped them move on.

Gillian: Yeah. 

Dan: Meaningfully. That sounds, sounds like a not miraculous moment, but I think she did describe this miraculous for her. It was immensely full and rich in meaning. But I think that’s happening all the time. And particularly, I suppose, at Evensong, you notice that, it’s one of those services where people do drift in and drift out. The importance of the nave in a cathedral where people can just slip in, without being seen, or someone saying, who are you? Why are you here? Or can we put you on a rota? and, and you can, you can see people just, who just come sit in silence, don’t engage in terms of standing up or saying the liturgy, but they come again and again. You can see there’s something happening there which can’t happen elsewhere, in a parish church very easily, I think. 

Gillian: Yes. 

Dan: And that’s I think that’s really important for cathedrals is, those, those borderlands of faith, not least if they’re cross or angry or can’t bear to be with with people for various reasons. There’s there’s a space for them to, to make sense of themselves.

Gillian: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. So you’re based in Chichester. Now Chicester had a difficult history, with the George Bell case and, I wonder, Dan, if you could sketch a summary of that case in a few sentences. I know it’s a big ask, but just if people haven’t heard of it or need reminded of it. And then I’d love to know, if you can tell us how you you coped with that? You wander around with a dog collar on, you’re part of the community there. How did you cope with the George Bell case? 

Dan: Yeah, yeah, well, it’s, it’s it’s a long story, which, goes back to before I came here as, as Canon. But, there was an allegation, made about George Bell quite a long time ago, which wasn’t dealt with properly at the time by the Bishop at the time. And when, the diocese was, in the middle of the last decade, really attending to its very difficult past and cover ups and, ruining of records and, and so on about which we know quite a lot from the independent inquiry into child sex, sexual abuse, that the complaint returned and the diocese, reached a settlement with the, with the complainant. There was no trial to be at. George Bell was long dead. This was his name …very famous Bishop of Chichester, sorry, I should have said and much revered in the diocese and more widely in the Church of England’s history. And with that, his, his name sort of began to be erased from a whole variety of, buildings, monuments. This wasn’t something which I think the complainants asked for, but it was the, the response of institutions, something which has become more prevalent since, I suppose. And so what we call a cancellation of a person, and that provoked an enormous outcry, I think, among people who felt that George Bell hadn’t been able to speak his side of the case, and also that good history had not been undertaken. And this led to, you know, this included the Cathedral, which had, its retreat house. George Bell house. We had to take down the…well this was before my time. But the chapter at the time, in good conscience, I think, seeking to do the right thing, took down his name from that building, and that was that.

I suppose that’s…various traumas there and handling, handling them appropriately. I think now the established feeling following the Carlisle review was that the diocese rushed to to judgment effectively without due process and made apology for that. And the cathedral eventually last year renamed our retreat house George Bell house. It’s incredibly difficult, you know, the the complainant is still alive and presumably that those memories for her are still, still felt, but, I think that goes into the very tricky area around contested history really. And and how do you do do justice to all parties? And, I thin,  I think the church did didn’t do justice to George Bell actually, in that process. And I think we are right to rename rename the, rename the retreat house. But, it, it was immensely painful and for everyone involved, I think and I think that the healing process for that is in some way moved along.

I think apologies have been made where they need to be made, but I it there’s part that which will always feel very unresolved, I think. All of that was in the context of well documented and evidenced abuse by others in the diocese, you know, not least Peter Ball, as Bishop of Lewes and then Bishop of Gloucester, that’s the most celebrated, not celebrated, that’s the wrong word obviously, But, been most famous case and, and and of course that that was, you know, the, the culture of anxiety as to right the wrongs and to bring these things into light and to seek justice for survivors was entirely appropriate. But, you know, whether that that culture of anxiety, leads to, was the best decisions, I think.

Gillian: Yes. Yeah. And looking at it sort of more, more widely within the church, and abuse, how how do we balance, I guess, what you’re saying around having a good process to protect those who are accused with protecting and caring for those who have been victims? 

Dan: Sorry what do you mean, in terms of the processes? or?

Gillian: Well, yeah. Well, I think, I think they’re intertwined, aren’t they? The processes and the care for those, those who have been harmed from the past…

Dan: Well, I think increasingly and action is something being very much on my mind I suppose here as a liturgist. And, how does how does liturgy assist in the process of healing? Because you can have, there’s a certain amount of justice and, which, which is established through, of course, through the courts and compensation appropriately. That can sometimes feel very much, as based on which is led by lawyers, and insurance companies. It can be quite dehumanising and of course, many of the survivors have really underlined that experience of feeling quite dehumanised by the process. And and the church standing far off in pastoral terms. How you offer pastoral care appropriate, I think is is, of course, very difficult. Some people don’t want anywhere near a dog collar in that situation. And, who determines what is right for, for, for those people and, and their needs? And that that’s, a task for the wider church. And of course, it’s been subject to much reflection and discussion in Synod as well. But I do think there’s probably a space in due course. I don’t know whether now is the right time, but to to think about liturgy. And what does, what does reconciliation and restoration, look like? I mean, that’s extremely difficult. And I don’t think there are really examples of that being done extremely well in this country at least yet. At least not that I’ve seen. I, I did spend some time at one point in Canada witnessing a very moving encounter in a, in a context for liturgy amongst First Nations or First Nations community, indigenous Canadians, who suffered a lot in a residential school. And there was a headmaster of a residential school who came and sought forgiveness from the Haida people in the context of a Eucharist. And a leader of the Haida people, you know, received his repentance and offered forgiveness, in the context of, of the Eucharist itself, which it was remarkable. But of course, that’s not something you can force upon people. And, I think we’re a long way from that at the moment the Church of England. But I, I, I wonder whether it’s also about space as well. Sacred space. Is there something to be said for a memorial of some kind, a place where people can, not be thrust into a liturgy where they suddenly feel controlled by the church perhaps, but somewhere where they can just be and offload. And art can do that sometimes more effectively. Or a space, a chapel set aside where people feel safe and can do that, at the church, trying to make them feel a particular way. 

Gillian: And you mentioned art there. Is there a particular, art or project or a scheme that you’ve done to show that you’ve seen the power of art in a holy space to help people?

Dan: Well, when after the pandemic, we did we did work with the Royal Society of Sculptors.They had worked together very carefully during the pandemic, and they wanted a space in which to express the solidarity which they had shared through the trauma of lockdown. Some of which which was extremely painful to watch. Some of the art, expressing the agony of an individual, for instance, and quite disturbing for people in some ways, I think.

But there was something also oddly healing about that, about allowing the Cathedral, which had been shut during the pandemic, to allow it now to receive the pain of people. And people, I think did respond to that, negatively as well as positively. But I, I think it, you know, forced people when they were trying to just move on and forget about it all to  actually re re encounter some of those feelings and to allow the space of that within the Cathedral.

So I think there’s some of that, going on in that, that exhibition, one of my projects has also been establishing a workshop of liturgical arts in Chichester. Artists creating beautiful art for God in worship. Icons, mosaics, this is traditional iconography. And I would note that you know, there’s something about that, that traditional liturgical art, which is not just about provocation or expression, but it’s also about allowing to be seen by God. We talk about icons, of course, being sort of windows into heaven, and that that’s a different sort of encounter in art, where actually you’re allowed to be gazed upon, in love. And it’s interesting we we did commissioner a mosaic of Saint Dominic. So Titus and Richard and it’s remarkable each time you go into the cathedral in the evening and you see the, the gold illuminated by the lights in the corner of the cathedral and in front of Dominic is just banks of candles where people have just gone to him.

I don’t think it’s because there’s a great devotion to Saint Dominic in West Sussex, necessarily, but there’s something about, the power of, of, some of that traditional liturgical art which helps people find healing, you know, and that that vision for art in worship, which is, about establishing a new paradise in the context of the church having a real vision for how all our liturgy, our music, our art, our architecture should, as people step into the cathedral, encounter something of paradise itself amidst the chaos of our world. And there’s something about integration there going on I think. 

Gillian: Yeah.

Dan: When people encounter that.

Gillian: I want to talk to you about, you know, that that journey into the Cathedral to find, to find a bit of Paradise. And cathedrals have often been, destinations for pilgrimages. I know you’ve been looking at pilgrimages recently as well. Traditional healing journeys or journeys to God. Why are you interested in pilgrimage? Have you been on one? Are you, are you a fan? Do you go on them all the time? Is there a favourite one you can tell us about? 

Dan: I wish I went on them more because I love them every time I go on them. I think the first one I went on actually, and still one of my favourite pilgrimages was to Saint David’s in, although on the…I’m walking the Welsh coastline, down from Fishguard and I did that when I was a student. I was going with a parish group from Oxford, and it was, it was remarkable, really. I just, there was the sort of hysterical moments to events of extraordinary coincidence. I remember us all sitting in the middle of nowhere singing this Italian Taize chant, as you do on these pilgrimages. And sort of out of nowhere appeared this Italian tourist, you know – ‘what are you doing?’ and I think there was various sorts of strange and hysterical moments along that. So there’s this sort of a lightness to pilgrimage, which, even though it’s tiring and exhausting, there’s something about what you share along the way. It goes back to that point about solidarity and sharing, sharing space and time together, with a particular goal in mind, which, does a lot of work, by itself.

It’s, you know, I suppose it’s Christ saying ‘take my yoke upon you’, but there’s something about, yeah, about that, that lightness and joy and freedom discover discovered, together on pilgrimage, even when it’s pouring with rain. 

Gillian: And why do you think they’re light and joyful and free? You know, you’re walking somewhere with a bag. You might not know where you’re sleeping at night. You know, why are they such joyful things to do? Some might argue they’re quite hard work. So. 

Dan: Yeah. And and you know, of course, and it’s sometimes extremely grisly and painful. And, but I suppose that’s, that’s all part of the, the framing of the wider life which is being brought to the pilgrimage. So, you know, it’s remarkable how you encounter just a people walk in the old way to Canterbury, and Chichester as a place along that path. And Chichester was of course, itself one of the great destinations for pilgrimage in the Middle Ages because of St. Richard’s tomb. The people coming to, not not specifically because they’re religious, people have had messy divorces, trying to find healing, wanting to just get away from the phone and the demands of home. And I think the ups and downs of the pilgrimage, things going wrong, the pain, the bad weather, whatever, that, that helps you kind of make sense of the rest of the, the rubbish crap in your life, I think, and something changes, through that process in ways in which God speaks to you in the silence, in the walking, in the conversations. 

Gillian: Yeah. Yeah. Because there’s, I mean, in the olden days, as you can see I’m definitely not a historian, but in ye oldie times in England people would go on pilgrimage, as penance, they’d done something wrong, or they’d go because they didn’t have the NHS, they’d go and seek healing for a particular thing at a particular shrine ,right. 

So in some ways, there’s an understanding that pilgrimage is deeply religious. But there’s been such a flourishing of pilgrimages, I think there’s a programme on the BBC of celebrities, I think, although I never know who they are, going on, going on pilgrimages and seeing what happens, you know, and there’s a pilgrimage society. So it’s kind of like sprung out, you know, we’ve got a, there’s been a leak. Oh, everyone’s discovered this.

Dan: Again, sort of tells you something about, oh, not that pilgrimage is unique, of course, to Christianity. But, it’s interesting that with the decline in church going, that pilgrimage, has almost become more important. There’s still this desire  to find sacred places.and that’s also part of Instagram generation, isn’t it? It’s about experience, which actually provides enormous opportunity, I think, in pilgrimage, it’s not just about knowledge is something about, going through a ritual together, and to a particular place which holds, because of relics, but also because of, its historic importance, a place, a place, a destination. I mean, the British Pilgrimage Trust has been, immensely impressive in all that they’ve done, I mean, often at sort of outside of the church and kind of tapped into that desire, but as a para-church activity, really, perhaps more of actually the church itself,  has done I think the church has probably been much more, it’s much more obsessed about people knowing and speaking about Jesus in a particular way and perhaps lost some of these facilities for, the less, the more intangible and, less concrete aspects of spirituality which pilgrimage does provide for and has kind of opened up a space in a country, which well getting back to what I was saying earlier, is supposedly post-Christian, but still recognises these places as having a sacred significance.

West Wales is an example of that, which people just, it’s got a magnetic draw, which keeps finding expression in culture in all sorts of different ways. Can’t think…those beautiful island just off the Welsh, the Irish West coast, which were used in Star Wars as an example of where Luke Skywalker has gone to it’s kind of flee, the chaos of the collapsing empire. It speaks to our own day doesn’t it, to try and…where do we find places of congruence and making sense of ourselves in chaotic society too, that these places will become probably more important. 

Gillian: Yeah. And of course, this pilgrimage, I mean, by definition is embodied. You know, you’ve got to take your body.

Dan: Exactly.

Gillian: Just kind of connection in there…

Dan: and the incarnational and reestablishing the bodily self, isn’t it?

Gillian: Yeah. And and also in the land, I mean, I love going to the Outer Hebrides and there’s, they’ve got the thing up there, but particularly and they have it in Wales as well along pilgrimage routes. They have holy wells, and places of the saints of refreshing people on the pilgrim ways. I dragged my kids around all the holy wells on the on the outer island.

This guy, Alistair Macintosh, writes about them, and there’s just, like, piles of wet stones. Never seen more disappointed children. I’m getting very excited about slightly damp pebbles. But a connection to the land in a way…

Dan: And ecological isn’t it, I think. There’s something about reconnecting the body with, with the land. I think that’s so important.

And, actually, I think that it’s something which the Swedish church I know has done extremely well, has really tied into a new generation’s desire to, cherish and give thanks to God for, for the land and recognising its fragility and or damage to it. And there’s something about treading softly across, across the land and reacquainting ourselves with it is certainly true. 

Gillian: It’s lovely. Dan, as we’re sort of drawing to the a close, I’m, I’m just reflecting back on our conversation. We’ve gone all sorts of different places as well. So, but listen, can you, can we end. I’d just love to ask, what gives you hope. For looking at the connection between history in all sorts of different ways and our present day flourishing as Christians?

What gives you hope that the church can still be there and help people today to find flourishing in the complexity of their lives? 

Dan: I think it perhaps it goes back to, well it’s the two images really, I suppose, of, of, seeing people, as a, as a Precentor engaged with the Eucharist, perhaps at Good Friday is such a powerful thing in a cathedral where this barren space you’ve got this cross which people come and touch, and watching people do that you see that’s there’s still the, the power of the cross and the mystery of the resurrection to bring new possibilities out of the darkness, and the seeming chaos of our lives and existence. And that’s expressed as much in the building as it is in the liturgy itself and I, I do see it as there is a bubbling of desire, I think, you know, the the more chaotic the world becomes and and the building bears testimony to this. The more the more significant that mystery, becomes for people and meaningful and transformative for their lives. I suppose what I pointed to myself earlier on, you know, it’s something which I sort of felt quite viscerally, all sorts of reasons, but, it’s one of the great joys of being a priest, to be able to see that mystery come alive in others too.

And something which I suppose, as a priest, that’s the particular privilege you have to encounter people at, at their deathbeds, actually, I’m just about to go off and present the last rites to a wonderful person, and that I know, will be one of the most hopeful things I do this day. Because that, well you’re given something in that process, it’s a small insight into the mystery of the kingdom in which we discover our strength in our weakness, God’s strength in our weakness. And where do you see it more beautifully than in a Christian, who’s giving themselves over to God at the end and letting go entirely into, into God’s love.

Gillian: Dan, thank you so much, you know I just pray that God’s with you as you go off from this podcast and be with that person.

Dan: And with your work team, yeah, thank you. Well what a yeah. What a thing to go and do. And, I thank God for you. I thank God for your ministry. Thank you for sharing with us. on the podcast today. We are going to be picking up this conversation big time over in the GoHealth community and if you’ve been really, encouraged or curious about what you’ve heard today, do have a look at our community and we’re on a journaling journey with our spiritual writer friend Wendy Lloyd at the moment. And all new members can get a free journal to support them on their journey right now as we look at history and how it connects with our healing and flourishing. 

Thank you to Rosie Dawson our producer and to Wendy Lloyd from the GoHealth team for all her work on this series and this podcast. Please do hit like and share to tell others about this episode and the work of the GoHealth Community, where together we seek to flourish and to be healing presences for all in the world today.

Thank you once again, Dan.

Dan: Thank you.