Healing Histories – Embody

Revd Ian Spencer began working life in the Royal Navy, leaving after five years to begin a career in the I.T. industry.  

He was licensed as a Church of England Reader in 1992, a ministry lasting 10 years in the Diocese of Worcester. 

In 2003 he left I.T. and began a full-time ordination course at The Queens Foundation in Birmingham, afterwards serving his curacy at “The Priory” in Great Malvern, Worcs. 

From there he served as Warden of Holland House Retreat in Worcestershire for fourteen years before retiring to Worcester city in 2023. 

He trained as a Yoga Teacher accredited with the Association of Yoga Studies, and also became a founder member of the Wild Goose Zen Sangha. He currently leads Day Events and Residential Retreats in those areas’ which interest him most, namely the Christian Contemplative tradition, Yoga and Zen, an inclusive combination he calls “The Boundless Way”,  and offers spiritual accompaniment to fellow pilgrims. 

Revd Ian Spencer helps us heal from a long history of bodies being denigrated by the Church. Drawing on wisdom from the Gospels, Zen wisdom and from Yoga, Gillian and Ian offer us a transformative body based way of knowing. 

The episode explores:

• Ian’s biography including Mindwell Ministries (you can read this in full on the GoHealth website)
• Ian shares what inspires him spiritually today.
• Gillian and Ian get into the sad history of the church in relation to bodies.
• Incarnation! 
• The importance of relationship with all things in our overall health.
• Avoiding overwhelm and the impact we can have in the healing of the world.
• Body based knowing.
• Ian provides a really practical example of how to develop body based knowing.

Links:

Mind Well Ministries

The body keeps the score, Bessel Van Der Kolk
The GoHealth Everyday Healing Course
Get your GoHealth journal here.
Visit our website to get connected with the GoHealth Community.
Find us on our socials @GuildofHealth

Gillian Straine: Welcome to the Go Health podcast. I am Gillian Straine chief executive of GoHealth, an organisation with a vision to enable churches and individual Christians to be a healing presence in the world. And in recent episodes of the podcast and in our health community, we’ve been deepening our understanding of what it means to find healing by exploring our past and the ways that history impacts on our flourishing today.

And, you know, we’ve included a lot of different topics. We’ve looked at structural injustice, genetics, psychotherapy, lots of different angles. And so in this final episode of the Healing History series, we’re chatting with Ian Spencer to explore how to make a little sense of this by bringing it back to where we can make a difference in the world, in our own lives, right.

And in particular in our bodies. So, Ian, welcome to the podcast. How are you today? 

Ian Spencer: Thank you very much, Gillian. I’m very well. Thank you. 

Gillian: I’m really pleased you’re joining us on the podcast. I’m really excited to chat to you today because you’ve got a whole bunch of different strings to your bow, don’t you, in your own right. Correct me if I’m wrong. Anglican priest, yoga teacher, spiritual director, and former director of Holland House, which is a retreat house, isn’t it? Now you run something called Mind Well Ministries. You tell us a bit about your vision for Mind Well, how you combine all the stuff you’ve done in your past, all your wisdom. What is Mind Well and how do you work with people today?

Ian: Thank you for asking me that. When I retired, from my work as the Warden of Holland House after 14 years, I wanted to continue some kind of ministry, being an ordained person, but also having had some freedom within the space of a retreat to explore spirituality and perhaps in wider and deeper contexts. And so, what I wanted to do was, offerspiritual direction or spiritual accompaniment I prefer to call it, meditation, yoga. Some of the insights that Zen gives us into the human, into human nature. And when I looked at all of that, I sort of, sort of seems to be decent summary to call it Mind Well, because in the end, everything points towards the mind. And it seems to me that if our minds are well, everything is well. So that’s why I, that’s why I call it Mind Well.

Gillian: But incorporating the body as well, I guess if you do yoga. So right there in the title, you…

Ian: Absolutely. I mean, one of the reasons why I started looking at yoga and ended up, I didn’t set out to become a yoga teacher, but I just got entranced by it and kept going from one course to the next. And it was about, you know, it’s just well over 1000 hours of being taught was that, you know, after many years of being a Christian, I just felt that the body was rather excluded from it all a lot of the time, or even worse, in some cases. Yet yoga practice is very inclusive. It’s very holistic. If you’re going to have a well mind, then it needs to be, in touch with the body. It doesn’t necessarily need to have a, well, in inverted commas body, but you do need to love it and be with it, because you can’t be anywhere else to it. 

Gillian: And I kind of want to ask you before we start. I just want people to get a sense of your vision Ian, I guess. Because we work together, we’ve been friends for a while. And I was thinking before we recorded this morning the first time I properly met you. I’ve met you before. Then I had lunch with you. Do you remember? In Holland House and we started talk. And you said something. Well, you know, you know, humans have been around longer than the church. And then we chatted about that, and then we talked about human evolution and the spiritual life and one of those kind of head exploding conversations like, oh, never thought about it like that. And then I knew I wanted to get to know you better. Right. I wanted to work with you. 

So. So what inspires you spiritually today? 

Ian: Right now, I’m really inspired by and interested in the whole subject of the relationship between consciousness and matter, I guess. Because the church and indeed a lot of religion over the years, tends to split those two things up, you know, spirituality and stuff tends to be set apart. And so anything that puts these things back together again, and celebrates them and encourages us to put them back together, celebrate them, I find inspiring. So I mean, really, you know, the Celtic tradition was my first introduction to, oh, God is quite a bit bigger than the old one in the cloud the beard with the clipboard looking at me all the time and wondering if I’m doing good or bad things. That actually…and then then the Franciscan tradition where Francis talks about Brother Sun, Sister Moon. And I decided that he wasn’t talking poetically about those things, that he actually meant them. But these things really, really are his actual brothers and sisters. It’s not a metaphor. It’s, it’s a kind of scientific spiritual fact. And that, that got…that gets me excited and gotten excited and onwards and upwards from there then. So it’s I mean yoga is a is a very natural segue, you know, from there. And so is Zen. And so is, of course, the wonderful and beautiful Christian contemplative tradition that we have. And, but it’s been, you know, largely sidelined for many years. 

Gillian: Okay, well, you know, let’s stay with this, this kind of sticking together all the stuff with, our consciousness and who we are today. The big split wasn’t there in the scientific revolution. Descartes said, I think, therefore I am, I you know, that was the one of the more modern iterations of separation between, mind and body. But it goes much further back, doesn’t it? If we sort of stick with the Christian tradition, there is a really, well sad doesn’t really cover it to be honest, this desperate history, within Christian thought, where the body is treated with a huge degree of suspicion, even denigration, you know, and I’m thinking now of, the idea that our bodies are sinful, that they do things. They are a thing that keeps us away from connecting with God.

Ian: Particularly women’s bodies. 

Gillian: Yeah, yeah, that’s exactly what I was going to say. Building up to that, particularly women’s body. That’s okay. We’re on the same page, clamping down on on any kind of pleasure, you know, some of these ascetic practices, you know, punishing your body in order to get closer to God. This seems massively at odds, with what you’re saying. Why have we got this inheritance, do you think, Ian? 

Ian: Well, I think it’s quite complex. I think there’s there’s been a lot of books written by people far more, brighter than I am on the subject. But, it seems to me that really, the just dualistic split, I think is probably as a result of Greek influence on early Christian thought, really. And so, there’s been this idea that’s permeated our tradition that somehow matter, all bodies, all forms, and just getting in the way of the fulfilment of our spiritual inheritance that actually somehow matter curtails and confines. And, it’s really only when we actually physically die that we kind of have our fulfilment. Which, you know, it’s ridiculous really, when you think about it, but sadly it’s the way it’s been portrayed.

So ideas really like we have a soul, which is kind of posted into, this form called a human body and then rattles around in it for years trying to get out one way or another. And finally, Hallelujah, we die and we can go back home to, you know, fulfil itself. Really?Really? That’s you know, God gave us all these prisons to walk around in – did He, She, It? So, you know.

Gillian:  And is it just sort of well, they just get in the way or do they actively lead us astray? I mean, 

Ian: Well, yes of course, particularly, you know, within the sexual environment, but also, you know, all of the desires if you like, you know, so anything, you know, even food and drink. But our bodies are getting in the way, are actively leading us away from the fulfilment point is to be truly human. Whereas it’s the complete inverse of that. So that would be my take on it, that we kind of inherited this, dualistic split from ideas of difference between body and spirit. 

Gillian: And if we’re overcoming this, at what level, at what point do you put any sort of boundaries to that? You know, is there a sense that should be some discipline around our desires, our, you know, our appetites and all the rest of it around the flesh and body. Is it about forming a different relationship? 

Ian: Yeah, that’s for sure. I mean, yoga for a start, is is very keen on, understanding this relationship and working with. But it’s about a healthy relationship between the two. And it’s about respect. I mean, it’s about loving the body and loving the spirit and loving the mind such that, we, we work to reduce its suffering and its harm, you know, in other words, harming other creatures and and harming ourselves. So in yoga, for instance, there’s a whole line of yoga called, pratyahara which again, which speaks about one here in many, many village halls on a wet Wednesday night when you know everyone is out practicing their postures. But pratyahara is all about working with our senses.

Gillian: our senses.

Ian: You know, the five senses and and and and actually bring the gateway, you know, conscious, a conscious gateway to the senses so that we’re not pulled around by them mindlessly into all sorts of areas, which actually causes harm. 

Gillian: And within the Christian tradition, Ian, where do you see good practices around overcoming this dualism between our bodies and our minds so that we can access or experience that love that you’re talking about? 

Ian: It’s a good question, isn’t it? well, to be fair, I didn’t find much. This is probably why, when I was learning yoga – I didn’t find it much in my Christianity that came through church. It’s not that you know, the churches I’ve been involved in were actively denigrated it, they just didn’t focus on it much. We do have something. It’s called incarnation, right? It’s at the very heart of our tradition. Incarnation. And we’re not incarnated into an evil matrix that we call body and form. The incarnation is an exquisite manifestation of the power, the glory, and the love of God. Every single body, not just mine, which it is, of course, but everybody, yours, mine, anybody that’s listening to this podcast, if they look at out the window, they’ll see the trees, they’ll see the clouds or see the sun. And if they’re lucky they might even see stars at night with the moon, they’ll see the creatures, the insects, the birds. Every single one of those is a beautiful, exquisite manifestation of the power, the glory in the love of God. And therefore. And they are all most beloved. It’s not for us to go around denigrating things and calling things names. There’s no health in that.

This is about healing, right, this podcast? There is no health in that approach. It’s actually creates a sickness. So let’s do the opposite. 

Gillian: Our churches just need to say that. I mean just that.

 

Ian: Yeah, 

Gillian: Right? You know, and open the doors a bit more often. Yeah. 

Ian: Yeah. That’s a good start. I think maybe if we talk a little bit later about a vision for the church, that would come into it because. Yeah. Why don’t we, why don’t we just say that? Why don’t we just say, you know, let’s let’s call it what it is, you know, because the whole world that is mostly…there’s a lot of anxiety around about bodies. And there’s a lot of people, you know, poking fingers at other people’s bodies and people are trying to…just in terms of human beings, people are unhappy with their bodies or they don’t know feel they work properly and therefore they’re not really fully themselves and all that other stuff that goes on and it’s it causes an awful lot of sadness and upset and people comparing themselves to other people all the time, you know, I need to look like this and, you know, and so on, so forth. So let’s not, let’s not do that. So one of the beautiful things about the Zen tradition is it says that every, every single being has an intrinsic value that is absolute. It’s not dependent upon anybody else’s opinion of it. Nobody anywhere. Every single being has an intrinsic value, that is absolute. why don’t we just talk about that – if we believe that God created all things, or in Saint John’s Gospel, all things are made through Christ, not a single thing.

Gillian: Okay, let’s talk about that then. Okay. Let’s talk about the personal because yeah, that is a fantastic vision and really uplifting, energising, we’re recording on a Monday morning, I think, yes, for the week ahead. But on a personal level, people, people’s people have a really tough time, particularly if they’ve got something in their pasts, some abuse, some trauma. we all know the theories about the body keeps the score.

How much in, in when we’re talking, if we’re talking about uniting our, you know, to our bodies, but our body keeps the score of past suffering, how do we move on from that? How do we truly try to find some healing from what our, our bodies carry? 

Ian: I mean, the first thing to do is acknowledge that our bodies do carry, that we do carry pain and suffering. So, not just the mind in actual fact, but the body as well. So that’s, you know, the body keeps the score book is very clear about that. And that’s, it’s been a wonderful insight. And it’s been a huge blessing to many. So first of all, I think, to acknowledge that is the case, but also recognise perhaps to see these things, these experiences that we’ve had of suffering as an opportunity for wisdom, an opportunity to learn something. For each of these experiences, to be a teacher for us.

Now I know it’s easy to say that. And so, I do know that we we need some support and help with that. And there’s a whole raft of different ways of getting support and help with that, but rather than sort of carrying around our sufferings and letting them, you know, kind of impinge on our happiness and, and, it’s a very short span of life that we’re given, maybe if we can find a way of allowing these things to teach us and then move on, with the teaching that’s of help. And, of course, again, in the traditions that I look at, particularly yoga and Zen. There’s a great deal of wisdom in them saying, well, no, don’t be attached to the past. Don’t attach to it, recognise it, learn from it. But don’t, but don’t be attached to it. Don’t. 

Gillian: What does that mean though? What’s being attached to your past mean?

Ian: What I mean by being attached is, is that sort of its becomes an encumbrance – I was thinking about this the other day and when I thought about it the image that came to mind was Marley. Marley, Scrooge’s partner in the Christmas Carol.

Gillian: Oh Yeah. 

Ian: So when when Marley appears to Scrooge, he doesn’t see him at first, he hears him.   And what does he hear? He is chains and a lot of metal rattle. And when he looks at Marley, Marley is dragging behind him miles and miles of empty cash boxes and chain of all of his past deeds, his wrongdoings, and that’s caused him some huge suffering -dragging this stuff around with him. And it’s causing him to be, you know, sad and lonely, he’s always wailing and moaning. And so I think, you know, that’s what I mean by being attached. So let’s learn from, let’s learn let’s, let us discover wisdom, in this sense. But let’s not get so bound up on courting them, hat we become completely identified with them. And then they cause us more and more suffering than they need to have done.

Gillian: Is this sort of a bit. We talk to a psychotherapist in the pod, and, she highlighted  how people, and I, you and I include myself in this, it’s just human behaviour, it’s nothing, I mean, it’s just life. People get caught in patterns, you know, for example, you know, the example she talked about people getting stuck with abusive partners. They always go back to the same…these patterns that have deep, deep roots in self-identity, as well, is this, are you talking about that kind of thing? But from an understanding of it being around attachments. 

Ian: Yeah, yeah. 

Gillian: And you talk a lot about body based knowing. Can you just outline what you mean by body based knowing, what does it mean to get knowledge from our bodies if we’re talking about healing from the past, often we think about we get knowledge from books or experience or what elders tell us. What does this body based knowing? What can the body teach us about how to be in the world?

Ian: Body based knowing, is in some senses kind of thoughtless know. So it is a knowing based on self experience rather than a whole bunch of ideas. And so, you know we are embodied and that’s what, that’s what is to be a human. Try being a human without having a body – I’m not saying that existence doesn’t, you know, arise outside the body, but… Well, as a human being you have a body and bodies are body, minds and spirits are interconnected and interdependent. It’s not the body isn’t, as I said, a cage in which the soul is rattling around, they are completely woven together.

So the body is an exquisite…if the bike I ride, I could be wrong I guess…but if the body is an exquisite manifestation of the love and power of God, then it needs to be listened to, right? And we do listen to our bodies when they scream at us. When you’ve got a headache, when you’ve got a gut ache. But other than that, don’t listen. We tend to cover everything up with a whole bunch of…ways of doing that?

Gillian: Is this more than intuition? We’ve obviously talked about trusting your gut and intuition. This seems like it’s more than that. 

Ian: I mean, it is intuition, but it runs. It’s deeper than that. It actually requires practice. It actually requires a little bit of work on our part to, to listen to the body and, and to hear its voice because it gets shouted down, there’s an awful lot of meditations and other ways of kind of shouting down the still small voice of the body.

Gillian: Tell me more about how do we do that well, how do we listen? We’re not used to that. How do we do that? 

Ian: Well, how do you listen to somebody when they’re in your presence? 

Gillian: You shut up. 

Ian: It’s not difficult is it?

Gillian: Pay attention. 

Ian: You shut up and you pay attention. And you need to do that to your body so you can, you know, there’s all sorts of practical ways of doing it.

Gillian: Yeah, yeah. 

Ian: Which can be taught, you know, through various, you know, techniques, including yoga, of course, which is, you know, majors on it. 

Gillian: When I’m stressed, it always goes to my stomach. But sometimes our bodies might be telling us something’s really wrong, right. So how do you do? You know, what’s the wisdom around that? 

Ian: The wisdom around listening to your body telling us something wrong?

Gillian: Well, it might be. So, I was talking to a medical doctor the other day, and…

Ian: Yeah. 

Gillian: And one of the most difficult things to diagnose is IBS, irritable bowel syndrome, because, that is so stress related. But also sometimes the, symptoms you experience might be really serious, might be cancer, might be something, Crohn’s or a really, you know, a medical issue that requires intervention from the medical system. Okay. There is some wisdom around how we do this body based knowing, listening, in a safe way isn’t there?

Ian: It’s definitely important to go to the doctor if, you know, if you feel you should. I know I’m not suggesting that, but what I am suggesting is that, is that we spend a bit more time listening to how we feel, you know, and I know that you can you can, you can listen to how you feel after a meal. You know, do you feel good? Do you feel happy? Do you feel light? Do you feel fresh? Do you feel ready to go? Or do you feel absolutely stuffed, can’t move. You know, and, you know, maybe get a headache afterwards, maybe get a really dry mouth afterwards because you put too much salt on it, or whatever. So there’s those little things.

Gillian: Putting the medical stuff aside and that’s a health warning, you know, go to the doctors if you’re worried. You’ve got to say that kind of stuff. But particularly around stress and anxiety, isn’t it? They’re the things that can really hold us back from flourishing mind, body and spirit. I was, you know, I had a stressful week. This is not the Gillian confessional show, but, then I went for a walk in the park and I felt like I was going to cry.

I didn’t cry, I was like, oh, I didn’t realise I was so stressed. I went to the park. I stopped thinking, suddenly I felt like crying. 

Ian: You know why? 

Gillian: I think I felt emotional because I was relieved that I stopped. 

Ian: Yeah. So it’s like a release really. 

Gillian: Yeah. 

Ian: Because you’re back, because you reconnected with home, you’d come out of your head.

Gillian: Yeah. 

Ian: And you’d reconnected with, with a greater consciousness. 

Gillian: Yeah. 

Ian: A greater being, which was being manifested all around you as the birds and the bees and the flowers and the trees and the wind and the sky, you know, released from the confinements of your mind and its thoughts into a greater mind and into a greater body -that’s such a relief isn’t it. 

That’s why we like to be outside in nature. That’s why there’s a thing called forest bathing. All forest bathing is is a conscious walk in the woods. Rather than going to the woods and putting your earphones in and listening to a podcast…

Gillian: except this one…

Ian: Or going to the forest and chatting with your friend the whole way round, or going to the forest and mulling over, you know, your life and what’s good about it and what’s terrible about it. Rather than doing all that, going to the forest, into the woods, anywhere up a hill, to the beach. And just be there.

Gillian: So talking about going for a walk with a friend in the forest and things like that, I’m often struck in Mind Well Ministries about your emphasis on the importance of relationship. So we’re going to find a holistic flourishing, and tune into this bigger thing that you just described. There’s a, a significant part of that which is understanding that we are in relationship not only to other human beings, but the whole of creation. And as I was thinking about this this morning I was reminded of a friend of mine told me about an African greeting she’d come across it, you know, in England, we’ll say, how are you? I’m fine thanks, how are you? Right? And we don’t mean any of it. And this African saying, I am well, if you are well. Which sort of beautifully paints a picture of actually, we are, in complex interrelationships with all things.

Ian: I love that. That’s great.

Gillian: It’s beautiful, isn’t it? As well.

Ian: Yeah. Because it’s a, it’s an absolute truth, isn’t it. I mean, it’s absolutely true. I mean, we can’t be well if our relationships are broken. If the relationship with our personal selves, if we don’t like ourselves or if we over like ourselves. You know, if we don’t, you know, have, an open, accepting relationship with, and see, as I said earlier, that all beings everywhere are nothing other than the manifestation of God’s beautiful, glorious love.

So, you know, in other words, unless we’re all well, none of us are well, and you can see that anyway, that’s just a piece of science, right? I mean, and, if, if your foot is sick, you’re sick, right? You see, you can’t be put your foot to one side. And go, I’m fine. If your foot is giving you pain, all of you is in pain. That’s the way it is. 

If the oceans are sick, we’re all sick. If the air is sick, we’re all sick. If the soil is sick, we’re all sick. And that goes across the piece. There’s no such thing as, a completely, you know, as a poem goes, no man is an island, you know, entire of itself. That’s just a fact. It’s science, let alone spirituality. 

So in the Zen tradition we talk about, everything is interconnected, interdependent and impermanent. And therefore, you know, we need to realise that and be, and have relationships that reflect that. We need each other. 

Gillian: And does this then lead into some kind of activism then, Ian. Because if we’re talking individually, we tune into our bodies, we see our bodies as a source of knowledge about how to be and flourish. But if we’re tuning into the world and we’re seeing all this sickness, we’re seeing the oceans are sick, the air is sick, environmental. But also, you know, we’re seeing wars and conflicts and complex histories there. And we are living in this moment. Does this sense…is it just, is it just for Mind Well Ministry an acknowledgment of that? Or does it lead into something else? Some other way of being then?

Ian: you gotta do something. That’s what it is to be incarnate. No good sitting around just thinking about it. Nothing happens at all. So, you need to do something so, you know, and there’s loads to be done. I mean, goodness knows, there’s no shortage of information, on what we can do to, facilitate, better relationships with, with all beings everywhere. But in the end, it’s to do with the mind and it’s to do with our minds, and it’s to do with our conditioning. And it has to do with not understanding the consequences of unconditional love. And they’re all connected. They’re all connected. So to love without condition, which I believe is the gospel, which I believe is exactly the ministry of Jesus, to love without condition. There is no quid pro quo. No, what’s in it for me? No I’m looking for a return on investment. You get out there and we love the other. And just as they are, why? Because they are intrinsically beautiful. So, we get out, we pick up plastic if we see it, and we try not to use so much plastic, and we don’t eat so much meat. And all the millions of other things that are out there. 

Gillian: Yeah.

Ian: We know we can do to enable this, the relationship, which is already in place, we’re not creating anything new. What we’re doing is we are joining in with, what actually is. And that’s, that’s the way forward. There’s not another way, not another way. 

Gillian: How do you avoid overwhelm? You know, because if you look in the world, there’s there’s so many there’s so many things you can do as you, but you can’t do everything. There’s so many things gone wrong. But we can’t fix everything. How do we avoid getting overwhelmed with all the things we should be doing and keep it focused on our health and healing in the world?

Ian: All you can do Gillian is what you can do as you. In some senses, it’s an act of humility, right? You know? But I mean, here am I, Ian, and I’ve only got a certain amount of energy and a certain amount of power within this body of mine, and a certain mental capacity. So just do what you can do because, because every…this is just my view, I might be…again, I could be wrong, but I believe that every single loving act, every act of compassion, every act that is,  that is an acknowledgment of all things being sacred. None of that goes missing. None of that is lost, it all helps to build, on the, what Christians would call the Kingdom of God, which is already here. It’s just that we’re picking it to pieces rather than, playing a part in in strengthening it. So do what you can. 

So when a fly lands, if you get a little fly buzzing in, I’d want to…you know a fly taught me a massive lesson a few years ago. I was taught to type something up. It was a sermon and a fly kept bashing into the screen on the computer. There would have been a time when I chased it around the room with a rolled up newspaper, tried to get rid of it that way, but instead of that, I just watched it right? I watched it, and it was hitting my screen. And then it was flying to a window that was closed. So I went and opened the window and it went out and I released it, and I felt really good about myself. Oh good, she’s she’s managed to get out and she’s gone home. What is that? Honestly, in a, in a world, in a universe as big and as complex and on the earth as violent as ours, how can meeting a fly out the window make a difference? Gillian, it makes a difference. Don’t be overwhelmed. Do what you can. Small things, small…every act of love, no matter how small, is enough. The widow’s mite in the Gospel was enough. Just that. 

Gillian: So as we’re drawing to a close, Ian, give us one thing we can do to tune into a body based way of knowing today.

Ian: Okay, I think the simple thing, well, is it simple? It is – it’s simple, not easy. I’d suggest the place to start is to love yourself. I mean, deeply, deeply compassionate. When you look in the mirror in the morning go, ‘you know what a beautiful creation’ okay. It doesn’t matter what the papers tell you you’re supposed to  look like. It doesn’t matter what you think you should look like which is only really, a compilation of what other people have said and done, blah de blah, forget all of that, it’s all not right. Just be compassionate to your self, to your own body, which is exquisite. To your own mind, which is exquisite, remarkable thing the mind. Aand take it from there because, as Jesus said, if you love yourself, then that love just spills out and flows out, it’s not stoppable and it flows into your neighbour. It flows into the fly, it flows into the, you know, the natural environment. It flows into the person at Tesco’s checkout when you you know, Aldi or wherever you go. At Waitrose…wherever your money takes you. You know, it’s because because that’s the way it is. So if you love yourself in the way I’m describing then you will not be able to not love other people and all beings everywhere.That’s the place to start.

Gillian: Ian, thank you so much. I’m grinning from ear to ear. It’s always a pleasure talking to you. And you’ve been a real blessing, I think, on the GoHealth podcast, helping us bring everything to a close and giving us actual to dos right, that can change the world. Even, for me, I’m a little girl, even in the little checkout queue.

 

Ian: Well you know, I’m an olden boy so there you go.

Gillian: We’re going to be picking up the conversation over in the GoHealth Community. We’ve been journaling our way through the series. So log in now to find all the latest resources, or join and get a free journal and access to our whole catalog, including our Burn Like Stars season and our online Trauma course.

Thank you to Rosie Dawson, who is our producer, and Wendy Lloyd from the GoHealth team for all her work on this series and the podcast, please do hit share and like let others know about our work, the work of the GoHealth Community where together we seek to flourish and be healing presences in the world today. Ian, thank you so much.

Ian: You’re very welcome, thanks for inviting me.