Creation Cares – taking action

Clare Fussell joined Operation Noah in January 2024. Clare has a background in coordinating environmental campaigns, with experience leading The Climate Coalition, managing Christian Aid’s Campaign Team, and being Environmental Adviser for Bristol Diocese. She is passionate about linking Christian faith with environmental action, and enjoys learning about permaculture and biodiversity through her role as trustee of Hazelnut Community Farm in Bristol, as well as through the eco work at her church. Clare is married to Luke, a renewable energy engineer, and they have two young children. 

In their conversation together Gillian and Clare explore:

• Would Clare’s teenage self imagine she would be doing what she is doing now
• Responding to the Climate crisis by balancing the big scene with small actions
• How Operation Noah has been supporting churches through the Bright Now campaign. 
• What churches can do in response to climate change and biodiversity loss.
• Why climate change and environmental concerns are not a side show to the main purpose of the church. 
• Clare’s three tips for avoiding activist burnout as a Christian engaged in climate justice. 

Links:
Operation Noah
The Hazelnut Community
Burning Down the House Report – Tearfund
The Lost Words by Robert McFarlane and Jackie Morris
Borrowed Time – A Green Christian project
The Loss and Damage Campaign – Christian Aid
COP29 – United Nations Conference of the Parties

Gillian Straine: Welcome to the Go Health podcast. I am Gillian Straine, Chief Executive of GoHealth, an organisation with a vision to enable churches and individual Christians to be a healing presence.

And we like to think of the GoHealth podcast as our gift into the world, with conversations that inspire and empower us all. And right now the GoHealth community we’re thinking about the links between healing, faith and climate change. Because if we’re not careful, the climate crisis can really lead us into exhaustion and even despair. So our GoHealth angle on this vital topic is to hear the call, not to care for Creation, but to care with Creation.

It’s about rerooting and regrounding ourselves in Creation as a positive and hopeful way to flourish. So in this episode, we are meeting Clare Fussell who is a campaign director at Operation Noah. Claire has previously led the Climate Coalition and is also a trustee of the Hazelnut Community that I’m sure will hear about. Clare, welcome, it’s really a privilege to connect with you today.

Clare Fussell: Thank you, Gillian, for having me. And it’s great to be here. 

Gillian: So, Clare, right. You are the Bright Now director at Operation Noah, a Christian charity that works with the church to inspire action on climate change. Clare, would your teenage self have imagined that this would be what you’d be doing right now? 

Clare: I mean, that’s such an interesting question. I mean, I became a Christian as a teenager, so I think my teenage self would be quite intrigued that I’m working for a Christian organisation in my 40s, but I wasn’t actually a climate convert until much later. When I became a Christian and became interested in how I best live out my faith. I think I thought that all the main problems facing the world were structural issues. They were around unjust trade and unfair debt, inequality, poverty. And so I went off to university and I studied economics, and I did international development work and went into overseas aid charities. And it wasn’t until probably about 2010, around about that time that I came to realise that actually the climate crisis was serious and not just serious, of utmost importance, and that if I cared about ending poverty, I needed to care about tackling climate change because it risks undermining all the development gains we’ve made over decades in the global South.

And it’s the defining existential crisis of our time, isn’t it? And so I’m very interested in how faith can drive activism and drive change. And that’s how I came to working in climate change, campaigning for, well, now at Operation Noah but first at Christian Aid and then the Church of England as well. So that’s sort of been a been a journey.

Gillian: And why I’m particularly excited to chat with you as well, you are doing all this big, important, systemic work linked into the justice. And I really want to get into some of the work that Operational does around, you know, divestment of income and stuff. But I know you’re also part of this Hazelnut Community doing small, local, really local stuff in your garden. So that’s because that’s what I want to get into – it’s explore that tension between the massive things and the little actions and what we really can do on a day to day basis about all this. You seem to embody both things, do you? That’s what’s in your head when you get up in the morning…this is just all natural, right? 

Clare: Well, I think that the climate crisis is so huge, it’s sometimes hard to imagine that we can succeed with it and that we’re tackling it, but we can succeed in what we can do.

We can succeed in planting seeds in the ground and seeing them flourish. And I think that there is a really tangible, hands on, embedded part of our climate change response in that kind of very local, very small scale, very earthy, action that we can take. But I also think that with the big picture, as Christians, we have a slightly different angle on things because we trust in a God that doesn’t ask us to single handedly fix the big picture, thankfully. Otherwise I think we’d be in big trouble and we know that we can’t save ourselves. Our salvation comes from God. And so I think that, that takes away some of that pressure of feeling that we have to be focusing all the time on. 

It’s changing the huge systems of global climate change and focus instead on, well, what can we do? What are we called to do through our faith and through the gifts that we’ve been given? I mean, I always come back to…as a follower of Jesus. What does Jesus ask us to do? Right? And I mean, Jesus was an agent of change himself. He was an activist, you could say, and I think that coming back to his two key commands of loving God and loving your neighbour and reflecting on, well, what does that mean in my life? And I believe that that can look like striving for justice, for peace, for mercy, for bringing love into all situations. And that’s going to look different from each and every one of us. But when we think about our role in helping to restore nature and protect the climate, then that expands our vision of what does it mean to bring love into that situation?

To thinking about mercy for the earth and love for all created things and justice for the soil and for the trees and for the fields and I think that that can then the lead us into thinking, well, what role can we play in that? And that’s could be anything from taking care of our gardens and changing our diet, stopping flying, taking these actions that are part of showing love in our own way for all of Creation.

Gillian: The climate crisis, it feels so extreme and actually feels so real at the moment, we can read about it. But the only last week we had that enormous storm over in America that was off the scale in terms of what they predicted, because, of the amount of energy in the atmosphere. So as we can see it, we can point to it, we can see it on scary maps. I mean, who is going to solve this crisis, this climate crisis as well? I mean, do you have faith that… do you have faith that we’re actually going to get there? Who’s going to do it? 

Clare: Yeah, I think that we have to have hope that things will change, that we’re not too late, that we haven’t reached the tipping points, that the actions that we’re taking now will save some of Creation. But we also have to hold that in balance, don’t we? With this terrifying reality that we are facing mass extinction, that a lot is lost and there’s a lot of grief that comes with that, But I would say also that part of having active hope, it’s almost letting go of control of what the outcome is going to be.

We’re not called to be successful. We’re called to be faithful to God, and we’re called to live out our faith and it’s not on us, really, whether we succeed or not. We just need to do all that we can. 

Gillian: And that kind of preserves our health in it as well, while we observe what’s what’s going on. Because it’s going to take systemic change, really, isn’t it, to drive the kind of level of cut back in carbon required? 

Clare: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that there is a huge role for faith institutions to really engage and to play their part in this. But I think that when sometimes you have conversations, people and they think, wow, China is such a big emitter and the UK only emits 1% of global carbon emissions, what’s the point in doing anything?

And I always come back to that point of needing to take action, even if we aren’t going to succeed because it’s playing our part in God’s bigger picture. Putting our trust in a God that created all things and is in control of all things, with whom all things are possible. And we could quite easily fall into despair if we think that it’s all on our shoulders. But it’s not. And that’s a really freeing thing. 

Gillian: Yeah. 

Clare: And it enables us to carry on going and keep hopefully acting as doing our own part in that much bigger tapestry. 

Gillian: So tell me more about the the bigger part of the Operation Noah is, playing in this, what you’ve done in the past, what’s been successful around church divestments and, and. Yeah. So let’s start there and then look at what they’re doing now. 

Clare: As you said, Operation Noah is a UK charity. And, we’ve been going for 20 years and we work with churches to encourage them, but also to challenge them to take more action in tackling the climate crisis. And I think when we started out, we focused primarily on political campaigning, but then quickly realised that actually churches in the UK need to get our own houses in order before we call for others to take action.

So we can’t lambast governments and companies for not doing enough to tackle climate change if our churches are still investing in fossil fuel expansion. So we launched our church divestment campaign ten years ago, and then since then, we’ve moved more towards encouraging investment in climate solutions. So saying it’s not enough to just divest and take your money out of fossil fuels. But we have this wealth we’ve been gifted. What can we do positively to help speed the transition to a greener and safer future? 

Gillian: So just define for us, what do you mean by church divestment? 

Clare: Ultimately, we want to see churches and Christians moving their money away from financing fossil fuels and to mitigate global warming, and to have a hope of staying within the two degree temperature rise that’s been outlined by the 2015 Paris Agreement. We need to leave fossil fuels in the ground. We know that. And rapidly move towards renewable energy. So we’ve been calling on churches to sell any shares they hold in fossil fuel companies or any organisation that derives 10% or more of its profits from fossil fuels and instead invested in a whole wealth of climate solutions. 

Gillian: So was an easy sell to churches, to to get them to review the, the way they invest their money and then divest.

Clare: Well, it was slow moving at first, but the brilliant news is, is that we’re there…we’ve pretty much done it. It’s worked.

Gillian: Hallelujah

Clare: So, I mean, last year we saw the Church of England divest its 10.3 billion pounds endowment fund from fossil fuels. And I think the first churches were the Quakers back in 20…I want to say 2018? And since then, a whole number of church denominations across the UK have all sort of followed suit and realised that this is the way to go. And I think that partly that’s because as they were started monitoring the green credentials of fossil fuel companies, they realised that they weren’t aligned with the Paris Agreement, which means that their activities aren’t going to be achieving the rapid and significant carbon emissions reductions that we need. And the only moral option is to divest. So we sort of support church institutions through that process and help them to amplify that, because it’s not enough just to move your money. We want to do it very loudly and publicly and say, this is a moral issue, and others should be doing the same. 

Gillian: Was there any resistance to this kind of conversation in churches? You know, we’ve got other things to do. You know, the roof’s leaking. We’ve got to pay pensions. You know, there’s other things we should be investing in money in. What was the resistance and why was it there, do you think? 

Clare: Well, I think that a lot of the resistance was from churches saying that they felt they had a space on the table through engaging with fossil fuel companies by having shares or by investing in these companies that they had a voice and that they could be listened to and could try and influence them down the right path.

And I suppose that in certain situations where company is moving the bulk of its activities away from fossil fuel expansion, then that’s valid. But for most of them, they’re not. And so actually what you’re doing is financing the rapid expansion of fossil fuels. You’re funding the movement. And the only real ethical response is to take your money out of that. And I think that that argument was slightly hard won in certain quarters. But I think we’ve got to a point now where pretty much all denominations in the UK at least have divested.

Gillian: And the next step, you said, which seems obvious now I thought about it, is then reinvesting in portfolios that, what  promote good land use or promote different alternatives? That seems like a there’ll be lots of options out there. How do you support churches to do that well?

Clare: Yeah. So we’re supporting churches around moving their money, so moving church funds like you say, into climate solutions. And that can be renewables or green technology or nature based solutions, but also secondly pushing churches to think about the impact they can have with their land. Recognising that some churches like the Church of England, Church in Wales, Church in Scotland, have huge landholdings. I mean, the Church of England is one of the top ten land owners in the United Kingdom. So looking at how we can manage the land responsibly as well. So I mean, on the, the green investment side of things, I mean, we know already that the UK’s climate has changed and that that’s going to be expensive to adapt to.

And there are estimates that it’s going to cost the UK about 10 billion pounds a year just to put in place measures to help communities to adapt to climate change. That’s before you start, thinking about investments in alternative energies and, and all the rest. But the Church Investors Group, which manages the assets of 67 member churches and charities, they have assets totaling 26 billion. So even if they only earmarked 15% of their assets towards investing for climate impact, that’s 4 billion a year. And that’s a big dent in what we need as a whole country. So it just shows what power churches have. I think that they’re the third largest asset holder in the, in the UK. And so they have huge amounts of financial power to use.

So we have this new green investment declaration we’re calling it. It’s an initiative where people can sign up and declare that they are going to start moving assets into climate solutions and helping to spur others to do the same, to build a movement where we’re actively financing the future we want to see. 

Gillian: And you’re really raising up the conversation with churches around the moral obligations around what they do with their money. Was there any kickback I mean, you say the Church of England have so many billion they’ve taken out and shifted. Any kickback from the fossil fuel companies about, was it noted? That they’ve lost this sizable amount of money, it seems to me? Did that make any waves at all?

Clare: Well, I think an important part, as well as moving your money is, as I said, shouting about it, and I think that makes fossil fuel companies very uncomfortable if they have people who have a position of moral leadership in the country saying it’s absolutely unethical to bankroll these organizations, then yeah, that’s ruffling feathers.

But I think that, even though we might not have as many bums on the seats on a Sunday, churches are still seen as moral voices in this country. We still have a lot of political power. We have bishops, in the Church of England, in the House of Lords, so we still can speak up loudly on these issues and make a bit of a rumpus and make the fossil fuel companies sit up and listen.

Gillian: Yeah. So thinking about these churches, on the ground, you’ve mentioned land use. I’m just wondering if the church leaders sitting listening to us right now, what other things might they do to engage with the climate crisis? 

Clare: On land, I mean, it’s interesting because some church denominations have a lot of land and others have very little or none. And so sometimes when we’re talking about church land, we’re talking about local level churches and literally the patch of land or the church yard that they have around the building. And there’s some really fantastic work done by Arocha and the eco church scheme that guides churches at a local level through how to put together land management plans, manage their churchyard for wildlife and nature, and welcome people in and see it as a place of education for the wider community about how to protect our natural world.

But then if you’re thinking at a institutional level, there’s 2 or 3 church denominations that hold a huge amount of power in terms of land, I know that, as I said about the Church of England, but, even the Jesuits in Britain, a religious order, and they have about 100 million pounds worth of land holdings as well. So there’s other pockets of institutions that can really make a difference. And so we, Operation Noah, produce research and guidance that helps those church denominations to put together strategies, that recognise the need to protect and restore nature as well as seeking financial returns from their land, thinking about environmental returns as well. 

Gillian: Yeah. And then shouting about it, presumably. Going back to the, you know, local church, which may or may not have land. I’ve been in a few churches in my time. I’m in my mid-forties, too. And sometimes what’s happened, I’m not talking about any individual churches ever been part of my life in particular. There’s a keen bee who goes on and on and on and on and on about the environment. For very good reasons. We’re all agreed they are good reasons and really pushes it forward. And I’ve, I’ve seen does that put some people off because churches aren’t just about saving the planet. There’s lots of other things going on. So how do we if we all agreed that this is an important issue, how do we sort of mainstream it through the church’s life and it not being the thing you do in Creation Tide, or the thing we do because Janet keeps going on about it, or the vicar has got a new idea, you know…How do we elevate it in the same way that safeguarding is now a part of everything the church does? For very good reasons. 

Clare: Yeah, that’s a really, really good question. And it’s a deep question, actually, because it goes to the very core of what is church for? Why do we have church? And I would say, and I think we can probably all agree that church is there to be good news for the world. We’re there to follow Jesus and worship. 

Gillian: Yeah. And worship. 

Clare: And how better to do that than to get stuck into the work of creating hope through action to protect and restore our shared earth. I mean, that’s so hopeful. That’s such good news and that’s so prophetic. And I feel as well that there’s a real crisis of trust in faith institutions, and we can’t afford for the environment to be another issue that we’re just not getting it right on as a church.  We need to be serious about it. We need to be relevant. And you may well have, come across ‘The Burning Down the House’ report that TearFund released a couple of years ago and that, talks about young people’s fears about the climate. And, there’s a standout statistic there that says that 9 in 10 young people think that climate change is a hugely serious issue, but only 1 in 10 think the church is doing enough to tackle it.

And there’s a massive disconnect there between people’s own personal fears and where they see the church taking action. So actually, if we want to reach out, if we want to be missional, if we want to address the concerns that people have about their very existence, then we need to be tackling the climate crisis. And, I mean, I just wanted to give a bit of a because I like to be sort of high and mighty and theological, but, I mean…

Gillian: Tell us a story

Clare:  I am that person that you were just describing, you know, the agitator in my local church, and, I think that actually it’s…we’ve found we we’ve, we’ve been celebrating this last year and getting our gold eco church award…

Gillian: Brilliant

Clare:  And going through that process of getting, working our way through the eco Church awards has actually been a really life giving process. We’ve brought people along with us, giving them avenues to explore what they can do and how they can take action. And I mean, we have eco festivals every year where we can go outside in the church gardens, and we have stalls and coffee and cake, and we have art exhibitions.

And when I say art exhibitions, it’s quite low key, sort of sort of laminated pictures on stakes around the garden. And, we invite people from the local community to come in and to find out what we’re all about. And the kids play games and they race around and it’s just such a joyful time that it becomes a really highlight of people’s church calendar.

So it’s not a chore. It’s not something, another box that needs to be ticked. It’s a really beautiful time that people can come together and worship God and outside in nature and be thankful for all that we’ve been given. And so I think that if you’re thinking about, well, how am I? Oh gosh, we have another survey to fill out for Eco Church, and how are we going to get people to interested in it? I’d say look at what brings joy, what brings life, what brings enthusiasm, and then go with that. And you might not tick every box on the form, but you’ll bring life to the whole issue across the congregation. 

Gillian: And Claire in my head, just gone a different direction as you’re speaking, around the kids and children reconnecting with nature, I came across the, Lost Words. It’s a book by Robert MacFarlane and Jackie Morris. The Lost Words, a spell book where he’s identified, children who are not in nature, and we’re losing our words to describe this deep connection with nature. And I’ve just looked up the quotation.

Robert writes, ‘We’ve got more than 50% of species in decline. And names, good names well used can help us see. And they help us care. We find it hard to love what we cannot give a name to and what we do not love we will not save.’ And that and and, I’ve just felt I made a connection with what you’re saying. And actually getting kids actually just into nature, used to nature, loving nature, naming nature and, you know, the connections to saving it, and that’s and that when we’ve lost our connection, we lose a bit of who we are actually. And that moves climate and church off a list of issues and into finding out who we are as a beloved child of God or in God’s creation. It’s sort of expand that, doesn’t it? 

Clare: It does. Absolutely. And I think that, I mean, at our church, we’ve, really involved young people in the whole process. And we’ve had climate services that have been led by the youth group and, the youth group have taken on the care for our pond, our new pond that we dug a few years ago. And, they look after that and make sure that there’s roots for insects and, and, little frogs to come in and out. Yeah. And that’s given young people a role to play as well within church life, because often there isn’t a job that you have as a young person in church.

You kind of come along and you’re, sort of a passive recipient of whatever the children’s church wants to throw at you that weekend. You don’t have a thing to do. And actually being told, we need to make bird feeders this week. We need to go out and do a Birdsong audit, you know, listen to how many birds you can see and how many birds you can hear and tick them off. And there’s and it’s and it’s given them an actual role to play in, church life, which as well as, being more connected with nature.  So I think that it has so many benefits and, I’ve been yeah, I think it’s been a real blessing. 

Gillian: And I want to go in a slightly different direction just now because we’re talking about anthropogenic, manmade, people made impact on the climate. And I’m making a connection my head with the the vast majority people that go to church are older generations. And it really is it’s the activity of people of the last 100 years that have caused this. Right. So we are responsible for this. And if we want churches to be a place where we can be real and honest and open because we want to seek our true identity with God and connect with God, there’s a space for another thing I think we do in churches really well, which is say sorry and lament. And I wonder whether the honesty around some of that is something else that churches can offer around healing what we’re facing. 

Clare: Yes. And I would really recommend the Borrowed Time program from Green Christian. So they have a series to guide churches through that very question of how do we lament, how do we hold our grief and not let it consume us in these times? And how do we turn that into action? 

Gillian: Yeah

Clare: And there’s some beautiful materials, it’s called Borrowed Time and there’s a website dedicated to it.

Gillian: Thank you. We’ll stick that in the show notes. Because I wonder actually are we then moving the conversation into reparations? You know, we’ve talked about money investing and, you know, it’s the the poorest people in the world that are most affected most quickly by climate change. Is that part of your work Operation Noah or you see other people engaging in those levels of debate? 

Clare: Yes. I mean, I think yeah, it’s a really interesting question. We lend our support of Operation Noah to a number of other campaigns, the Loss and Damage campaign being one of them, which is focusing on the reparations that rich countries need to pay to poor countries to help them to adapt and mitigate climate change. And I think that there’s fundamental injustice in the fact that the Western countries, as we know, are the biggest emitters, and yet the global South is suffering first and worst from the impacts of climate change. And Christian Aid have been working for a number of years on this, on a Loss and Damage campaign. In 2022 at Cop27, all the sort of parties agreed to establish this dedicated loss and damage fund, but it is still woefully underfunded. There’s really the fraction of the amount of money that’s been committed to that, that has been promised. And so, that’s sort of Christian Aid’s core focus as an international development organisation, particularly, thinking about how polluters need to be paying to help poorer countries to adapt. And I think it really is a moral issue. And, we have an obligation to, to act on that.

Gillian: And with COP29 coming up, how are you feeling about what’s going to happen? Are you are we looking that this is we’re just going to have to lament harder because of what we’re facing? Or is is there some hope, what might come out of it that can give us a bit of positivity?

Clare: Yes I mean, there’s been a lot said about this coming COP and the fact that it’s being chaired by a former fossil fuel executive, and it’s and the very fact that it’s in the Middle East and the difficulties there are oil rich states. And so I think that there has been some skepticism about it, but I think that that shouldn’t distract us from our core work of holding our leaders to account for what they’ve promised. I mean, the Paris Agreement tabled with many, late nights and blood, sweat and tears in 2015 means something. And we need to hold international leaders to those promises. And, I mean, whether or not we think that national targets of being carbon neutral by 2050 is, in the UK, is achievable or not. I mean, possibly it isn’t, but I think we need to try. We need to keep on doing all that we can, because what’s the alternative? I mean, if we kick the ball down the road and say, okay, let’s set ourselves more realistic, easier targets, let’s try and be carbon neutral by 2050, 2060, 2070. Meanwhile, more and more carbon is being emitted, isn’t it?

And yeah, the Earth continues to warm and biodiversity loss speeds up and poor countries suffer from more and more famine and crop failures. And we just don’t have that option. Yeah, we can’t lose more of God’s awesome Creation. We just need to ramp up action and ramp it up quickly and put all our efforts into curbing climate change and avoiding those tipping points. And then even if we fail, at least we can say, well, we’ve done all we possibly can, and we’ve delayed perhaps the worst effects of what the crisis might have in store for us. 

Gillian: Coming to the end now Clare. I want to end with asking you something about how you, keep hope in everything. But before we get there, we we also do a lot in GoHealth around helping people who are burnt-out or even a bit singed out right now. And I know that’s a big thing within activist communities, particularly looking at climate change. You know, if you care, it’s really hard. Is there quickly anything you’d recommend if anyone is feeling burnt out? There’s people who’ve done work in this area that could be of help to people

Clare: That’s a really good question. And you’re right, there is such a high rate of burnout with environmental activists and activists in general. And I think as Christians, we need to stop and realise that we can let go of that constant feeling that we should be doing more and faster, and that our efforts aren’t enough, because we know that our efforts are not enough, and they don’t have to be enough. And we’re not just working under our own feeble power. We’re under the power of an Almighty God who, with whom all things are possible. And I think that that’s a fundamental truth that we can hold on to. And I also think that if we’re following Jesus, we follow his example. And he was so intentional about taking time to rest, taking time to pray, taking time away from the hubbub and the demands of everyday life, and going up onto a hillside and and praying and restoring his soul and I just feel that that’s…if we’re wanting to be in it for the long haul, then we need to give ourselves that space to rest, give ourselves that space of nourishment and peace and calm and prayer. And I guess, thirdly, surround ourselves with other people, because when we’re in community and we’re in relationship and we’re supporting each other and encouraging each other and spurring each other on, the task is so much easier, isn’t it? And we’re never alone. 

Gillian: Yeah. 

Clare: And I feel that if we are feeling burnt out and like the weight of the world is on our shoulders, then look to those around us and how they can support us in keeping…fighting on the good fight. Perhaps knowing where to give up and where to let go and where to stop. So yeah, I’d say those three, those three points. 

Gillian: Thank you so much, Claire. I really appreciate your wisdom, your honesty as well about the reality of the situation. I give thanks that you’re doing all this high level, amazing stuff through Operation Noah, to help churches think about what they do with their money, but also the day to day stuff you do, in your own community. So thank you so much for being on our podcast today. You have mentioned a whole heap of other organisations, which I love. Let’s work in partnership with this whole thing so we will get that all into the show notes, including the Hazelnut Community we haven’t had time to mention, so I’ll put that in the show notes, too.

We’re going to be picking up this conversation over in the Health Community, who, as you know, are a group of people who are committed to exploring how to flourish faithfully today and to be a healing presence in the world. Thank you to Rosie Dawson, our producer, and also to Wendy Lloyd from the Go Health Team for all her work on this series and this podcast. 

If you enjoyed this episode, please do hit share and let others know about the work of the Go Health Community, where together we seek to flourish and to be healing presences in the world today. Thank you again Clare, it’s been super chatting with you. 

Clare: Thank you.